Discussion:
Old DOS networking technologies...
(too old to reply)
Grant Taylor
2018-05-13 22:59:10 UTC
Permalink
After learning about NetSoft's NSLAN from Harry Potter's recent post, I
got to wondering how many other networking technologies / applications
had I not heard of from the DOS days. Specifically thing that will map
drive letters and / or share printers / modems. I'm not looking at
terminal applications like ProComm at the moment.

I've messed with the following:

- MS-DOS's INTERLNK.EXE & INTERSVR.EXE
- LapLink
- Novell NetWare
- Microsoft's LAN Man client / redirector for DOS.

I've looked at, but not done anything with:

- NetSoft's NSLAN v1.40

I know of, but have not messed with the following yet:

- Artisoft LANtastic
- Banyan VINES (I'm still trying to find a copy to play with in VM.)

I would love to know if there are other things like NetSoft's NSLAN that
I'm oblivious to that I should mess with.

What else am I missing?
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
JJ
2018-05-14 08:30:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
After learning about NetSoft's NSLAN from Harry Potter's recent post, I
got to wondering how many other networking technologies / applications
had I not heard of from the DOS days. Specifically thing that will map
drive letters and / or share printers / modems. I'm not looking at
terminal applications like ProComm at the moment.
- MS-DOS's INTERLNK.EXE & INTERSVR.EXE
- LapLink
- Novell NetWare
- Microsoft's LAN Man client / redirector for DOS.
- NetSoft's NSLAN v1.40
- Artisoft LANtastic
- Banyan VINES (I'm still trying to find a copy to play with in VM.)
I would love to know if there are other things like NetSoft's NSLAN that
I'm oblivious to that I should mess with.
What else am I missing?
What about OS/2's own networking? I mean, Windows has Microsoft Network, so
OS/2 should have its own networking, right? I wonder if OS/2 has DOS driver
for communication with an OS/2 system.
Steve
2018-05-14 12:08:48 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by JJ
Post by Grant Taylor
After learning about NetSoft's NSLAN from Harry Potter's recent post, I
got to wondering how many other networking technologies / applications
had I not heard of from the DOS days. Specifically thing that will map
drive letters and / or share printers / modems. I'm not looking at
terminal applications like ProComm at the moment.
- MS-DOS's INTERLNK.EXE & INTERSVR.EXE
- LapLink
- Novell NetWare
- Microsoft's LAN Man client / redirector for DOS.
- NetSoft's NSLAN v1.40
- Artisoft LANtastic
- Banyan VINES (I'm still trying to find a copy to play with in VM.)
I would love to know if there are other things like NetSoft's NSLAN that
I'm oblivious to that I should mess with.
What else am I missing?
What about OS/2's own networking? I mean, Windows has Microsoft Network, so
OS/2 should have its own networking, right? I wonder if OS/2 has DOS driver
for communication with an OS/2 system.
Yes, OS/2 had its own network software. Both server and client for OS/2
and a DOS client.

Regards,

Steve N.
JJ
2018-05-15 05:38:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Yes, OS/2 had its own network software. Both server and client for OS/2
and a DOS client.
Regards,
Steve N.
Pity that there's no DOS server for it.
Steve
2018-05-15 17:59:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by JJ
Post by Steve
Yes, OS/2 had its own network software. Both server and client for OS/2
and a DOS client.
Regards,
Steve N.
Pity that there's no DOS server for it.
Well then it would be a DOS program and not an OS/2 one.
Think along the lines of Lantastic. And I don't know of an IBM
product of that type.

I should have mentioned that OS/2 also supports peer-to-peer
networking, avoiding the need for a server.

And the one time I set up the DOS client, while it worked, it
was not as "full featured" as other clients. It did allow my HP
LX200 palmtop to access the network and its resources. The
LX200 is essentially a PC/XT with MS-DOS 5.0 in ROM that
fits into a pocket.

Regards,

Steve N.
Grant Taylor
2018-05-15 20:46:07 UTC
Permalink
Well then it would be a DOS program and not an OS/2 one. Think along
the lines of Lantastic. And I don't know of an IBM product of that type.
Was LAN Manger /purely/ Microsoft? Or was IBM also involved? Did IBM
sell LAN Manager?
I should have mentioned that OS/2 also supports peer-to-peer networking,
avoiding the need for a server.
I'll argue that peer-to-peer is still using servers. It's just that a
machine is not /dedicated/ to serving.

All clients in a peer-to-peer network are capable of being a server in
addition to being an interactive client.
And the one time I set up the DOS client, while it worked, it was not as
"full featured" as other clients.
I seem to remember the Microsoft Windows for Workgroups Add-On for
MS-DOS's redirector having different capabilities depending on how you
configured it.

I believe this is typical of the various clients that I recall.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Steve
2018-05-16 12:25:21 UTC
Permalink
Hi Grant,
Post by Grant Taylor
Well then it would be a DOS program and not an OS/2 one. Think along
the lines of Lantastic. And I don't know of an IBM product of that type.
Was LAN Manger /purely/ Microsoft? Or was IBM also involved? Did IBM
sell LAN Manager?
IBM sold a LAN Manager style product called LAN Server (IIRC). It
has been a while. Look up Warp Server if you are interested in the
most(?) cited product.
Post by Grant Taylor
I should have mentioned that OS/2 also supports peer-to-peer networking,
avoiding the need for a server.
I'll argue that peer-to-peer is still using servers. It's just that a
machine is not /dedicated/ to serving.
All clients in a peer-to-peer network are capable of being a server in
addition to being an interactive client.
Okay, a matter of terminology. You mean something. I meant
something different, but similar.
Post by Grant Taylor
And the one time I set up the DOS client, while it worked, it was not as
"full featured" as other clients.
I seem to remember the Microsoft Windows for Workgroups Add-On for
MS-DOS's redirector having different capabilities depending on how you
configured it.
I believe this is typical of the various clients that I recall.
Well, too late now to try the same setup to tweak it.

Regards,

Steve N.
Grant Taylor
2018-05-15 20:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by JJ
Pity that there's no DOS server for it.
The Windows for Workgroups add-on for MS-DOS has a server component that
speaks the same protocol, NetBIOS. You might even be able to get it to
use the subsequent TCP/IP for Windows 3.x.

Thus DOS can be a server that other computers can connect to drives and
/ or printers on.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Grant Taylor
2018-05-15 04:49:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by JJ
What about OS/2's own networking? I mean, Windows has Microsoft Network,
so OS/2 should have its own networking, right? I wonder if OS/2 has DOS
driver for communication with an OS/2 system.
Yes, OS/2 has networking (in later releases). That networking is the
same SMB networking that Microsoft has. OS/2 started over NetBIOS. I
don't know if it ever made it to anything else or not.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Mateusz Viste
2018-05-14 08:33:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
After learning about NetSoft's NSLAN from Harry Potter's recent post, I
got to wondering how many other networking technologies / applications
had I not heard of from the DOS days. Specifically thing that will map
drive letters and / or share printers / modems. I'm not looking at
terminal applications like ProComm at the moment.
A modern (as in "recently created") one is my EtherDFS.
http://etherdfs.sourceforge.net

Mateusz
JJ
2018-05-15 05:10:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mateusz Viste
A modern (as in "recently created") one is my EtherDFS.
http://etherdfs.sourceforge.net
Mateusz
Very nice!

I've never heard of EtherDFS/EDF5 protocol. I'm guessing that it's a custom
protocol? Cause I can't find any reference of it anywhere.

I'm interrested on making an EtherDFS client/server application for Windows
platform, and I noticed that it uses AF_PACKET addressing family. On Windows
platform SDK, that symbol doesn't exist. Instead, the same value (which is
17) is defined as AF_NETBIOS. Do AF_PACKET and AF_NETBIOS have the same
address data formats?
Mateusz Viste
2018-05-15 07:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by JJ
I've never heard of EtherDFS/EDF5 protocol. I'm guessing that it's a
custom protocol? Cause I can't find any reference of it anywhere.
It is a custom protocol indeed. I designed it specifically for EtherDFS.
Post by JJ
I'm interrested on making an EtherDFS client/server application for
Windows platform,
Not sure a windows client would be useful, but the server part would be
nice to have. Note however, that it might be much simpler to run
etherserver-linux inside a virtualbox or qemu VM on Windows instead of
porting the entire thing natively :)
Post by JJ
and I noticed that it uses AF_PACKET addressing
family. On Windows platform SDK, that symbol doesn't exist. Instead, the
same value (which is 17) is defined as AF_NETBIOS. Do AF_PACKET and
AF_NETBIOS have the same address data formats?
They having the same enum value is certainly a coincidence. AF_PACKET is
used to craft Ethernet frames directly, without any headers nor imposed
structure. Is this possible on Windows? An alternative would be running
EtherDFS under UDP, which would make a server implementation on foreign
(non-Linux) platforms much easier. I actually provisioned some space in
the EDF5 protocol for this, but it would require some changes in the
EtherDFS TSR to emit fake UDP headers, and I am reluctant to work on that
at this moment.

Mateusz
JJ
2018-05-15 14:37:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mateusz Viste
Not sure a windows client would be useful, but the server part would be
nice to have. Note however, that it might be much simpler to run
etherserver-linux inside a virtualbox or qemu VM on Windows instead of
porting the entire thing natively :)
There should be a case when file operations need to be done from non DOS
platform. That of course, the DOS version of the server would need to be
made too.

VM can be slow or even not usable, for old computers. Also, won't the client
only sees the guest OS' files? i.e. no access to the host OS' files.
Post by Mateusz Viste
They having the same enum value is certainly a coincidence. AF_PACKET is
used to craft Ethernet frames directly, without any headers nor imposed
structure. Is this possible on Windows?
Bummer. I don't think it's possible, sorry.

While Windows does support raw sockets, it's limited/capped by the network
service where it can only manage layer 3.

Maybe this is the reason why *nix have very robust networking.
Grant Taylor
2018-05-15 20:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by JJ
VM can be slow or even not usable, for old computers.
I think that's HIGHLY dependent on what type of virtualization you are
using.

I've usually been able to get older OSs to run just fine in
virtualization. Usually.
Post by JJ
Also, won't the client only sees the guest OS' files? i.e. no access to
the host OS' files.
That typically depends on how networking is configured.

The guest(s) can be isolated so that they only talk to the host or
guest(s) can be allowed to talk to more of the network ~> Internet.

There's LOTs of things in play here.
Post by JJ
Bummer. I don't think it's possible, sorry.
I was going to be surprised if Windows included support for raw Ethernet
frames.
Post by JJ
While Windows does support raw sockets, it's limited/capped by the
network service where it can only manage layer 3.
Windows does support L2 bridges.

I thought there was a TAP (L2) implementation for Windows that would
allow a program to generate L2 frames. Assuming that's the case, you
could bridge the TAP (L2) interface to the existing network L2 interface.
Post by JJ
Maybe this is the reason why *nix have very robust networking.
~chuckle~
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Grant Taylor
2018-05-15 20:48:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mateusz Viste
It is a custom protocol indeed. I designed it specifically for EtherDFS.
Can I ask what frame type you used?

- Ethernet II (a.k.a. DIX)
- 802.3 (a.k.a. Raw) commonly used by older Novell IPX networks
- 802.2 (a.k.a. LLC)
- SNAP

I've done a LOT of reading and thinking about Ethernet frame types recently.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Mateusz Viste
2018-05-16 06:32:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
Can I ask what frame type you used?
Why would you ask that? It's an open-source project.

https://sourceforge.net/p/etherdfs/code/HEAD/tree/etherdfs/trunk/
Post by Grant Taylor
I've done a LOT of reading and thinking about Ethernet frame types recently.
Good for you. What are your conclusions?

Mateusz
Grant Taylor
2018-05-16 16:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mateusz Viste
Why would you ask that? It's an open-source project.
To learn something directly related to something else I've been learning
about.

I am a amateur coder at best. I likely wouldn't know what I was looking at.

Hence why I asked the question.
Post by Mateusz Viste
Good for you. What are your conclusions?
That there is a LOT in the history of networking / computing that is
being lost to the sands of time.

I personally enjoy learning things, or a little bit about them.

No conclusions per say. Just self education for edutainment reasons.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Mateusz Viste
2018-05-16 18:20:28 UTC
Permalink
EtherDFS uses "DIX-style" frames (Ethernet II), ie. dst mac + src mac +
ethertype. The EtherType value that I use is 0xEDF5.

I really doubt this is useful knowledge, though. :)

The code that generates frames is here:
https://sourceforge.net/p/etherdfs/code/199/tree/etherdfs/trunk/etherdfs.c

line 1174 sets the EtherType value (0xEDF5)
line 1430 sets the dst mac
line 1887 sets the src mac
line 302 downwards computes the frame's payload

This may look somewhat chaotic at first, but having the frame-generating
code scattered like that serves a higher purpose.

Mateusz
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by Mateusz Viste
Why would you ask that? It's an open-source project.
To learn something directly related to something else I've been learning
about.
I am a amateur coder at best. I likely wouldn't know what I was looking at.
Hence why I asked the question.
Post by Mateusz Viste
Good for you. What are your conclusions?
That there is a LOT in the history of networking / computing that is
being lost to the sands of time.
I personally enjoy learning things, or a little bit about them.
No conclusions per say. Just self education for edutainment reasons.
Grant Taylor
2018-05-16 19:52:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mateusz Viste
EtherDFS uses "DIX-style" frames (Ethernet II), ie. dst mac + src mac +
ethertype. The EtherType value that I use is 0xEDF5.
Thank you. That's what I wanted to know.
Post by Mateusz Viste
I really doubt this is useful knowledge, though. :)
I might add the Ethertype to my ever growing library.

But that's about it. ;-)
Post by Mateusz Viste
https://sourceforge.net/p/etherdfs/code/199/tree/etherdfs/trunk/etherdfs.c
line 1174 sets the EtherType value (0xEDF5)
line 1430 sets the dst mac
line 1887 sets the src mac
line 302 downwards computes the frame's payload
Thank you.
Post by Mateusz Viste
This may look somewhat chaotic at first, but having the frame-generating
code scattered like that serves a higher purpose.
I'll take your word for it.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Grant Taylor
2018-08-15 19:31:10 UTC
Permalink
 - MS-DOS's INTERLNK.EXE & INTERSVR.EXE
 - LapLink
 - Novell NetWare
 - Microsoft's LAN Man client / redirector for DOS.
 - NetSoft's NSLAN v1.40
 - Artisoft LANtastic
 - Banyan VINES (I'm still trying to find a copy to play with in VM.)
I would love to know if there are other things like NetSoft's NSLAN that
I'm oblivious to that I should mess with.
I recently learned about an additional old LAN:

- Invisible LAN (http://www.invisiblesoft.com/invlan/software.html)

Others have also mentioned:

- EtherDFS (http://etherdfs.sourceforge.net)
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
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